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December 11, 2004

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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Rats leaving the sinking ship?:

» Daily Dish from The Cool Blue Blog
Holland's immigration problems are finally getting some frank media attention in the wake of the murder of Dutch filmaker Theo Van Gogh. The Dutch police recently thwarted an attempt by Moroccan Islamists to bomb Amsterdam's [Read More]

» Is there a rat in the cat? from Classical Values
Is it time to "call the whole thing off" because Theo Van Gogh filmed kittens being mangled to death in a washing machine, and further because he thought that was funny? I'm having a bit of trouble with this logic,... [Read More]

» Netherlands Experiment in Permissiveness. Over? from Sortapundit
Amen to that. I've been waiting for many years for the Netherlands experiment in permissiveness (is that a real word?) to collapse in on itself. Looks like it may finally be happening. [Read More]

» Rats Leaving The Sinking Ship from Let's Try Freedom
Dutch society appears to be imploding. That's the word from Sisu, anyhow. The multi-culti experiment is most advanced in places like Holland, and that's also where things are going to hell. [Read More]

» NEW AMSTERDAM from Peaktalk
OK. I have written about the Dutch being the most Anglo-Saxon of all the Europeans and I have highlighted how their pragmatism contributed to their phenomenal economic successes. There was a piece missing and this blogger pointed me to the [Read More]

» Extreme Leftists and Radical Islamists; They're simpatico from United States of Earth
When you look at the fact that in the west those most opposed to fighting the War on Terrorism have been the far left and you couple that with this article from the UK's Telegraph, I think it strong case that the far left and Islamic ext... [Read More]

» Absolute truth must be spun absolutely from Classical Values
The American elite is almost beyond redemption. . . . Moral relativism has set in so deeply that the gilded classes have become incapable of discerning right from wrong. Everything can be explained away, especially by journalists. Life is... [Read More]

» Absolute truth must be spun absolutely from Classical Values
The American elite is almost beyond redemption. . . . Moral relativism has set in so deeply that the gilded classes have become incapable of discerning right from wrong. Everything can be explained away, especially by journalists. Life is... [Read More]

» Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:37 PM from Critical Section
Sisu wonders about Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship. "Escaping the stress of clogged roads, street violence and loss of faith in Holland's once celebrated way of life, the Dutch middle classes are leaving the country in droves for the first time in... [Read More]

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Let's not throw out the baby with the bath. I don't think that the freedom to smoke some pot or to pay for sex necessarily leads to the mess the Dutch are facing. The fundemental error the left always makes is in inventing excuses to take the fruits of another's labor. Talk about a slippery slope! Once it's OK to take from one for the benifit of another it becomes simply a matter of time before most folks begin thinking of ways to get theirs.

"Interesting that the Dutch middle classers have apparently opted to cut and run, leaving it for others to clean up the mess they have made."

Why do you lay this at the feet of the Dutch middle class?

The general problem with European welfare states is they make it too easy to subsist on government handouts while making it too difficult, because of government over-regulation and beauracracy, for people to start their own businesses. The patronizing elites don't understand why their immigrants aren't eternally grateful for the generosity and gladly bow down to kiss their sensitive, progressive rings.

By contrast, it thoroughly sucks to be on welfare in the U.S. It's humiliating and insufficient and that's exactly how the government and the overwhelming majority of the population want it to be. And compared to Europe, it's far easier for an immigrant to start his or her own business and hire fellow immigrants. The combined result
is an over-decades decline in the number of people on welfare and a lack of "seething unassimilated ghettos" that become recruiting grounds for terrorism.

It easier to play the victim game in places like Holland because the system encourages it. It's much harder in the U.S. where the general response to such whining is "Shut up and get a job".

To Sissy Willis:
You say: "You say mischievous, I say psychopathic . . . Let's call the whole thing off." For Van Gogh, its too late to call the whole thing off. He was murdered by a crazed (aren't they all) muslim. Now thats what I call psychopathic. But keep on pursuing your grand agenda of political correctness. Just make sure the last native Hollander turns out the lights on their way out.

If Ayn Rand believed in an afterlife, then wherever she ended up she'd have a big ol' grin on her face at this news. Assuming that grinning isn't anti-life & anti-mind, of course...

"If your platform is robbing Peter to pay Paul then you can always be assured of Paul's vote" (Winston Churchill, I think). Works in a democracy especially well if your policy is to rob one Peter to pay off two Pauls -- it's a mandate!

But the whole scheme falls apart quite quickly if the Peters start to emigrate.

When this happened in the former Soviet bloc we called it "voting with their feet".

I remember the late forties and the fifties. The welfare state and massive redistribution was such a grand idea at the time. I was certainly all for it. So sad for an old liberal like myself to think that Thatcher had to save the UK, Pinochet had to turn Chile around, and Ronald Reagan had to straighten out the US tailspin. Ronald Reagan! But at least Europe stood like a shining beacon.

Now the European dream, so much further developed than any other social democratic capitalism, is being destroyed. Not economically. Europe's socialism could survive indefinitely as long as it was not under threat from an outside malevolism. Unfortunately, the primitive stone age philosophy of imperial expansionist islamism is dooming the lovely dream of socialism caring for its obedient citizens.

Under ordinary circumstances, for socialism to survive, its citizens must be passive and compliant. But if a malevolent force from outside threatens the social order, the citizens will not know how to react. Further, because the state's resources are all being utilized in social bureaucracies, the state itself is helpless before the threat. Yes, the state authorities are citizens too, passive and compliant except at the highest, most grasping levels.

It may be too early in the morning, but I can't find the washing machine story. Anywhere. Is there a link?

I mean link confirming the writer's assertion. (Sorry.)

Middle class people are moving with their feet everywhere; sometimes I think we are all just changing places! Four friends have left in the last couple years because of housing prices and tax burdens (both caused by overpopulation). In my county in California, 60 percent of our population is foreign born (I assume most are illegal). The rest of us that do business with them are nudged into taking cash for wages or payment for services "to avoid paying taxes." I quit a job because I wouldn't do it. The IRS knows me -- I'm a citizen. And the city leaders won't admit why their coffers are empty.

Marvin Thulenberg:

"Not economically. Europe's socialism could survive indefinitely as long as it was not under threat from an outside malevolism."

This is the reason it won't work. The same reason Rawlings' arguments don't. If you cannot get behind the curtain of argument in the real world, then the argument cannot be applied to the real world. There (for any foreseeable future) will *always* be an "outside malevolism."

Point me to a world without one, then we can talk of setting up a utopia. Socialist or otherwise.

I found two articles on the kittens thing. One said the scene was faked, the other said it was real. For whatever it's worth, the scene was not "because Van Gogh thought it was hilarious" but involved a woman who was kidnapped and the kidnappers killed her cats. It doesn't sound like the kind of scene that would "require" real kittens.

The European, Hayek, explained the problem in 1944.

The Euros been asleep for what? 60 years?

Well maybe his work was never translated into Dutch. That could be it.

Lucky for the Anglos and Americans that he spoke English, no?


They haven't given up the dream. Look at two of the places being talked about. Canada and New Zealand. They're walking the same path as the Netherlands. They still cling to the socialist dream. It's just with reality that they have a problem. So they pull up stakes and move on to the next utopia dreamland.

A couple of things to say here:

a. first, to ZF - that quote about robbing Peter to pay Paul is spot on (although I first saw it attributed to George Bernard Shaw rather than Churchill, but no matter). My own version reads that "you can rob Peter to pay Paul only until the Pauls outnumber the Peters", which of course is exactly your point. The Peters will either bail out (until the authorities close the exits) or they will change their names to Peter and become parasites rather than producers, but either way the system will collapse of its own weight.

b. Second, I have to laugh at the notion of the Dutch moving to Canada to escape their current situation. On a minor point, yes, there is lots of open space here, but 2/3 of Canadians live in cities of 100,000 or more (a far greater rate of urbanization than the US), and more than half of all immigrants in fact end up in one of three cities (Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver). I don't see the Dutch being any different, especially as they are accustomed to living in close quarters, so that the wide open prairies of Saskatchewan are not likely to be too attractive. But secondly, and more to the point, if the Dutch think that they will be getting away from the multi-culti bullshit by moving to Canada, they are in for one hell of a shock. Multiculturalism is official policy here. Assimilation is certainly not enforced; in fact the government actively encourages and even pays immigrants to retain their old cultures rather than adapt themselves to anything remotely Canadian (except that extreme secularism is preferred to any retention of Christian belief).

We haven't seen any politicians or artists or anyone else murdered in the name of radical Islam, but I get the feeling it's inevitable. And the sadder sense I get is that the Canadian public has been so gelded by political correctness that they won't even raise themselves to the Dutch level of anger for fear of being labelled racist or judgemental or some other cliche.

And this used to be a wonderful country . . .

I do not know who invented the ridiculous story about Dutch middle class leaving our country, but it is surely in high contradiction with the truth. The large number of Dutch living in Canada, Australia and New Zealand now emigrated in the 50s. If there are any Dutch emigrating now, they will not do so because of the recent events. The multiracial and multi-belief society we live in on a relatively small area is hardly matched anywhere else in the world, as is our freedom of thought, speech and progressive law. I think a lot of countries are facing a much bigger mess than what we are experiencing now. Now doubt, these events have opened the eyes of many and shaken some foundations. However, we will sort out the problems in the way we have for centuries. In brief, I am proud to be Dutch and would never think about living elsewhere with less freedom. Warm regards from a rather cold Holland,
Cheers,
HL

It seems to me that Europe, in general, requires far more assimilation than the US does. Perhaps I'm wrong? That the assimilation doesn't happen is beside the point. We celebrate our China Towns and Little Italies. When people dress strange because their religion requires them to wear something on their heads we shrug and say "Oh, well. That's their business isn't it." The small town where my parents live has had significant numbers of Sudanese move in . . . the ethnic make up of the town is nothing but Scandanavians and Sudanese . . . bizarre, actually. (Oh, and a few hispanic migrant workers.) But while France is banning head scarves, the Sudanese girls go to school every day wearing traditional clothing. No one is *making* them assimilate. No one is directly threatening their culture or language or religion, they can keep them. The cultural "threat" can be dealt with at a comfortable rate.

Not that everything is easy or without conflict. It takes people a while to get used to the idea that the basic make-up of their town is changing into something new and different. But as far as US assimilation goes . . . it isn't simply the immigrant that changes. Everyone changes and morphs into this new and vibrant culture. And it's not all the same all over, it's different. Scandinavian and Sudanese isn't going to end up looking like Asian and New Mexican.

And that's the fun part, isn't it?

Sorry, Sissy - Trackback kinda screwed up there. Any chance you could delete two of those? Thanks.

Hallo Hans,

In http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/11/wneth111.xml>this article, an http://www.visaspecialist.com>immigration professional said it.

Frans Buysse, the head of Buysse Immigration Consultancy, said he received more than 13,000 hits on his emigration website in November, four times the usual level. His office in Culemburg is flooded with fresh applications.

"Van Gogh's death was a confirmation for them of what they already sensed was happening," he said. "They're accountants, teachers, nurses, businessmen and bricklayers, from all walks of life. They see things going on every day in this country that are quite unbelievable. They see no clear message from the government, and they are afraid it's becoming irreversible, that's why they are leaving."

Marvin

One can only assume by your comments that you've never lived in Europe. The picture painted by the media/elistists/internationlists is far different than the reality.

A tower of regulation babel increased a hundred fold by the EU, crushing taxation, repressive unions, political corruption at every level, and little access to capital combined with a traditional class structure that punishes tall poppies, prevents the upwards economic movement we readily enjoy, nay, consider a birthright.

For almost twenty years I travelled and worked abroad. That first-hand experience convinced me that our system for all its flaws is still the best for the individual.

We are, in my opinion, on the slippery cultural slope taken by Europe. However, I firmly believe that we will turn away from the precipice. The relentless attack on Judeo-Christian morality and symbolism is the beginning of the end for the American left as it leaves a sour taste in the mouth of most Americans, whether they espouse those beliefs or not, they are discomforted by the mean-spiritedness of the secular movement. It leaves one with an uneasy feeling that one's own sacred cows may be the next culled from the public square. When our founding documents are banned from schools because they contain the word "God" or "Creator," that is foolishness writ large enough for all to clearly read.

The past election may be the bell weather vote, or not. It is impossible to say what we might do next, what course we may take and that freedom based on individual rights is our strength and Europe's fatal flaw. Collectivism is not a sustainable mode of governance as history has thus far demonstrated.

The next two years will be an interesting test of our system as groups such as MoveOn.org attempt to take control of the Dem base and pull them hard left or create a new third party to challenge the party machinery. George Soros' other infusion of money to influence an election in the former Soviet satellite of Georgia has not gone well.


Hallo Ari F.
Thanks for pointing out the article. However, i cannot escape the impression that the wording in this article is very suggestive and exaggerated. Does 13000 hits on a website mean that the Dutch middle-class is leaving the country ? Forget it, no way. Most journalists are only directed towards sensation, and will use any statistic to score. Let's stay realistic, that is what we usually do in Holland. Thanks again for your kind assistance,
Cheers,
HL

Hallo Hans,

Of course you are correct. The media is not to be relied upon due to their zeal for hyperbole and their need to present a sensational story.

It was the not the web-hit statistics that impressed me. As you implied, 13000 web hits doesn't mean anything - many of those hits may be from robots. The fact that the hit count quadrupled *might* be significant- but there may be other factors as well.

What impressed me was the quote from the immigration consultant whose business is assisting people that wish to emigrate from Holland. He indicates that the middle class ("They're accountants, teachers, nurses, businessmen and bricklayers, from all walks of life...") are leaving and that part of their motivation stems from recent events (the murder of Theo Van Gogh) which tend to confirm an uneasiness or even despair with the direction in which the country is moving.

I tend to have more faith in professional opinions than in those expressed by the media.

I'm sure that there are many that like yourself that love your country and are proud to be a citizen. This is commendable. But apparently there are also some that feel that they have been let down by a government that does sufficiently address their concerns.

I do not know the specific politics of your country, so I am in no position to know whether they are right or wrong. I do know that individuals need freedom and security, and each individual needs these things in varying degrees. I also know that these two essentials have an inverse relationship to each other and it can be difficult to find the appropriate balance.

I hope that balance will be found eventually. In the meantime, efforts to find that balance will continue be made. Some will fail, some will succeed.

Pim Fortuyn was the Netherland's first political assassination since 1584? Tell that to the De Witt brothers, who ruled Holland in the 17th century. John and Corneilius were literally torn apart by a frenzied mob in 1672 when their policy of appeasment towards France resulted in an uprovoked invasian by Louis XIV.

22 year old William of Orange (later Englands's William III) then took control, opened the dykes, and drove the French out. It helps to be reminded that the Dutch used to be made of sterner stuff.

[ If Ayn Rand believed in an afterlife, then wherever she ended up she'd have a big ol' grin on her face at this news. Assuming that grinning isn't anti-life & anti-mind, of course... ]

What do you? I suppose that Ayn Took-her-Anglo-last-name-from-the-label-on-her-typewriter would have been in favor of wide open borders immigration. Unrestricted, the-more-the-merrier immigration policies are consistent with Rand's minimal government Objectivism, are they not?

This includes letting swarms of Muhammadans into what were once known as "Western" countries. Cheap Muslim labor is ever so important to efficient Capitalism doncha know.

Objectivism, Libertarianism, or whatever you want to call that sh*t is largely responsible for the new Muslim invasion of what was once Christendom.


-- david.davenport.1@netzero.

Multi-culturalism isn't what is going to hell in the Netherlands. Multiculturalism works pretty darn well in the US, from my experience -- even allowing for (hopefully) temporary depravities such as all the PC stuff on college campuses, and for affirmative action based on race (as opposed to quality of high school) that was necessary in the 1960s and 1970s but which now seems to do more harm that good.

I think there are twin issues in places like the Netherlands: first, that people can come to a country and do not work and get paid very decent welfare payments -- doesn't it seem that people who get paid something for nothing end up being resentful? Do they feel that they are inferior because they let other people do what they should themselves be doing (and would have to do, for far less money, in their native countries)? Secondly, that the new country doesn't make it abundantly clear what the rules are in the new country and deport people who don't comply -- as France is doing, although France would do better to also lose the extended welfare benefits. When people have to work, and know the rules, I think things will work out better for immigrants. Think of all the Asain and Latino immigrants in the U.S. who own homes within 10 to 15 years of arrival in the U.S. For that matter, Muslim immigrants: I've been going to Afghani and Pakistani restaurants for ever. Bottom line: don't blame multiculturism, blame structural defects in the socioeconomic and governing systems.

Just my two cents,

TJ

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